This was a great write-up and I appreciate you sharing it. You pose a lot of interesting questions as part of this and here are some of my thoughts as a man reading it:
I don't think I can speak for all men but the way I feel about women, and the way I believe most men feel, is that I want to not hurt them. Women only understand relative physical weakness in the way you phrased it, "acknowledging that you likely have significantly less upper-body strength than even chemically castrated men is a hard pill to swallow", but women don't understand how frightening it is to know that you are attracted to a being that your existence is hazardous to.
Men are disgusted by men who want to hurt women. Men who are actually misogynistic tend to crowd together in niche communities because it's the only place they are accepted. This doesn't change that men know our bodies can injure women and are constantly stuck between knowing that and wanting to protect the women we are with. I cannot tell you how profoundly frightening it is to hold the woman you are with and realize how small she is compared to you. Sex is exhilarating both because it's pleasurable and because it's scary to feel this warm creature against your body and know that she is so fragile but wants you to do these things to her. (I'd recommend reading some of Aella's research in this area as well wrt differences in sexual interests/expectations between men and women, it may change how you perceive normal male desire)
What you insist on calling Misogyny is not actually a hatred of women. The vast majority of men do not hate women as an entire class. What they feel is trapped between the wish to be desired by a woman, and the shame of their own difficulties achieving and maintaining relationships, and develop social/emotional complexes to manage these feelings. Actual misogyny is one response to this, but there are plenty of others: simping, contractual relationships, promiscuity, pornography, religious norms, etc.. No matter our feelings on these, there needs to be an actual solution. "Men should all just get over it" is not a solution to the male desire/shame complex. People never "all just" do anything.
Further, the idea that women are in some way "entitled to male sexual attention" to learn about their own sex is objectifying and really not meaningfully different from the idea that men are "entitled to female sexual attention" to satisfy their need to be desired. An actual co-equal relationship is not predicated on men or women using sex to satisfy their personal needs, but on men and women wanting to give sex as a gift to the other partner.
Glad to hear you appreciated the article, Bardamu, and thanks for your response!
I guess I don’t feel that men’s existence is inherently hazardous to women in the same way a bear's, or shark's is— since men are people and not beasts. Rather, I find men’s ideologies and actions hazardous. As a result, I feel a lot of anger at the way men often treat women— because it’s always a conscious choice, never a simple instinct, because, again, men are people, not mere beasts.
I guess I don’t take much comfort in the idea that men who wish to harm women gather in niche communities, because what good does that do women? They’re still out there, in every single vein of society! But you’re totally right that you can judge a man pretty well by the company he keeps, so that's some comfort.
I feel like the way you describe how men can experience fear regarding women’s vulnerability might tie into what I said about male projection— lots of men seem to feel dangerous or dirty, and externalize that onto women. I can’t speak for how well Aella’s opinions match my own regarding gender differences of sex interests and expectations bc I’m a starving artist and don’t have the budget to become a paid subscriber to read her work— but thanks for the rec!
I think the term “misogyny” that I use fits pretty neatly into what you’re describing! I would say that misogyny is the hatred, abuse, or denigration of women that some men adopt most often as an unhealthy coping mechanism for their own fear and shame regarding their own abilities re sex/relationships, personal accomplishment, and general self-worth.
I admit I often write in a polemical style- but I don't feel it's fair for you to claim that I said things I never said. I don’t see anywhere in my article that states that I think men should “all just get over it” or that women are “entitled to male sexual attention," and I definitely don't believe those things. Would you like to clarify what you mean by that?
I totally agree that healthy sex is never transactional.
There is such a thing as too small, but I've had my share of male partners and the biggest ones were mid lovers and the best lovers were normal sized. I don't think the relationship between size and pleasure is strictly linear. It may also depend on the woman a lot i.e. how much you enjoy g-spot stimulation. Maybe your experience is different, but that doesn't mean I'm lying, either.
Hi Malatela! I wasn't trying to argue that women are lying when they say they are perfectly happy with a normal penis size. I was more trying to argue that I feel it's a lie to say that size, in general, doesn't matter for physiological vaginal stimulation, and I argue that I feel it's a lie based on patriarchal ideologies put in place to oppress women. I do feel the relationship between size and pleasure is much more linear than society is comfortable acknowledging, but I know not all will agree, and that's fine! Thanks for reading!
This was an interesting write up with several good points, a few of which I didn't consider before. Just to state the obvious, not only men cannot control their size, they cannot voluntarily control their erection either, much of which really is within the woman's power. Yes that's true also for women which can't voluntarily control tenting and lubrication (i guess) but for a man there seems to be a lot at stake every time, as our own identity and self worth depend on it.
Hi Giampiero- thanks for reading! Yes, I think the fact that men face a certain necessity/expectation of "sexual performance" that women don't, and thus may be uniquely at risk of feeling shame in regards to performance, is a big driver of misogynistic behavior re sex- all that misplaced shame should be felt and processed, not projected onto women. I would say, as a woman, feeling "responsible" for a man being attracted to you is a burden in its own way- women buy painful procedures or sometimes even starve themselves to death in order to control whether or not men have sexual responses to them. So while I hear what you're saying, and I agree men are not completely in control of spontaneous arousal, and that women can have power over a man by him finding her attractive, I don't agree that women are really "responsible" or in control of men's arousal either.
This is a fine example as to why as a father I brought my sons up around women. It is an absolute right that every person is free from any type of abuse. This violent verbal included.
I’m sorry to hear about your issues and glad to hear that you have ‘overcome’ them. I would suggest for you to focus more on the emotional connection of an act of love, and not on the mechanics of sex. The true pleasure for both men and women comes down to the love, not the clinical physical act.
Thanks for your feedback! I am writing here about the mechanics of sex because that's necessary for the treatment of vaginismus- it can't be overcome through emotional connection or love, its a psychosomatic issue- but I agree that love and emotional connection is crucial to healthy sex, once the physical issues are addressed!
Hi Quambale! I'm not a man so idk exactly what men need. But, non-pickup-artist movements where men support each other in picking nice outfits/hairstyles/glasses, working out to get strong, and then supporting each other on the nerve-wracking quest to approach women with respect? I guess that's called "friends" but some men seem to lack that. I guess I think there should be a massive cultural backlash to misogyny by men, but I don't see it. A male neo-chivalry movement?
I was speaking polemically, but by "lumps" I want them to take, I mean: women are expected to constantly listen to our physical limitations delineated, and accept them, so why don't men accept that they have physical limitations too, like inferior fine motor control, or penis size mattering (to some degree) to the mechanics of sex?
This was a great write-up and I appreciate you sharing it. You pose a lot of interesting questions as part of this and here are some of my thoughts as a man reading it:
I don't think I can speak for all men but the way I feel about women, and the way I believe most men feel, is that I want to not hurt them. Women only understand relative physical weakness in the way you phrased it, "acknowledging that you likely have significantly less upper-body strength than even chemically castrated men is a hard pill to swallow", but women don't understand how frightening it is to know that you are attracted to a being that your existence is hazardous to.
Men are disgusted by men who want to hurt women. Men who are actually misogynistic tend to crowd together in niche communities because it's the only place they are accepted. This doesn't change that men know our bodies can injure women and are constantly stuck between knowing that and wanting to protect the women we are with. I cannot tell you how profoundly frightening it is to hold the woman you are with and realize how small she is compared to you. Sex is exhilarating both because it's pleasurable and because it's scary to feel this warm creature against your body and know that she is so fragile but wants you to do these things to her. (I'd recommend reading some of Aella's research in this area as well wrt differences in sexual interests/expectations between men and women, it may change how you perceive normal male desire)
What you insist on calling Misogyny is not actually a hatred of women. The vast majority of men do not hate women as an entire class. What they feel is trapped between the wish to be desired by a woman, and the shame of their own difficulties achieving and maintaining relationships, and develop social/emotional complexes to manage these feelings. Actual misogyny is one response to this, but there are plenty of others: simping, contractual relationships, promiscuity, pornography, religious norms, etc.. No matter our feelings on these, there needs to be an actual solution. "Men should all just get over it" is not a solution to the male desire/shame complex. People never "all just" do anything.
Further, the idea that women are in some way "entitled to male sexual attention" to learn about their own sex is objectifying and really not meaningfully different from the idea that men are "entitled to female sexual attention" to satisfy their need to be desired. An actual co-equal relationship is not predicated on men or women using sex to satisfy their personal needs, but on men and women wanting to give sex as a gift to the other partner.
Glad to hear you appreciated the article, Bardamu, and thanks for your response!
I guess I don’t feel that men’s existence is inherently hazardous to women in the same way a bear's, or shark's is— since men are people and not beasts. Rather, I find men’s ideologies and actions hazardous. As a result, I feel a lot of anger at the way men often treat women— because it’s always a conscious choice, never a simple instinct, because, again, men are people, not mere beasts.
I guess I don’t take much comfort in the idea that men who wish to harm women gather in niche communities, because what good does that do women? They’re still out there, in every single vein of society! But you’re totally right that you can judge a man pretty well by the company he keeps, so that's some comfort.
I feel like the way you describe how men can experience fear regarding women’s vulnerability might tie into what I said about male projection— lots of men seem to feel dangerous or dirty, and externalize that onto women. I can’t speak for how well Aella’s opinions match my own regarding gender differences of sex interests and expectations bc I’m a starving artist and don’t have the budget to become a paid subscriber to read her work— but thanks for the rec!
I think the term “misogyny” that I use fits pretty neatly into what you’re describing! I would say that misogyny is the hatred, abuse, or denigration of women that some men adopt most often as an unhealthy coping mechanism for their own fear and shame regarding their own abilities re sex/relationships, personal accomplishment, and general self-worth.
I admit I often write in a polemical style- but I don't feel it's fair for you to claim that I said things I never said. I don’t see anywhere in my article that states that I think men should “all just get over it” or that women are “entitled to male sexual attention," and I definitely don't believe those things. Would you like to clarify what you mean by that?
I totally agree that healthy sex is never transactional.
Thanks for reading!
this is a well balanced response
Absolutely beautiful & so well thought out. Thank you for your story, it’s given so much new language to my own!
Thanks very much for listening to my story! :) I'm glad to hear that it can be helpful in any way to others!
really enjoyed your unique insights thank you for writing
Thank you for reading!
Thank you for your amazing honesty
Thanks so much!
Absolutely engrossing piece. I learned so much from it! Thank you very much for sharing!
Thanks very much!!
There is such a thing as too small, but I've had my share of male partners and the biggest ones were mid lovers and the best lovers were normal sized. I don't think the relationship between size and pleasure is strictly linear. It may also depend on the woman a lot i.e. how much you enjoy g-spot stimulation. Maybe your experience is different, but that doesn't mean I'm lying, either.
Hi Malatela! I wasn't trying to argue that women are lying when they say they are perfectly happy with a normal penis size. I was more trying to argue that I feel it's a lie to say that size, in general, doesn't matter for physiological vaginal stimulation, and I argue that I feel it's a lie based on patriarchal ideologies put in place to oppress women. I do feel the relationship between size and pleasure is much more linear than society is comfortable acknowledging, but I know not all will agree, and that's fine! Thanks for reading!
This was an interesting write up with several good points, a few of which I didn't consider before. Just to state the obvious, not only men cannot control their size, they cannot voluntarily control their erection either, much of which really is within the woman's power. Yes that's true also for women which can't voluntarily control tenting and lubrication (i guess) but for a man there seems to be a lot at stake every time, as our own identity and self worth depend on it.
Anyway, again, interesting point. Thanks.
Hi Giampiero- thanks for reading! Yes, I think the fact that men face a certain necessity/expectation of "sexual performance" that women don't, and thus may be uniquely at risk of feeling shame in regards to performance, is a big driver of misogynistic behavior re sex- all that misplaced shame should be felt and processed, not projected onto women. I would say, as a woman, feeling "responsible" for a man being attracted to you is a burden in its own way- women buy painful procedures or sometimes even starve themselves to death in order to control whether or not men have sexual responses to them. So while I hear what you're saying, and I agree men are not completely in control of spontaneous arousal, and that women can have power over a man by him finding her attractive, I don't agree that women are really "responsible" or in control of men's arousal either.
“It was a MIRACLE that I didn’t get sexually abused like other women”
You are mentally fucking ill
This is a fine example as to why as a father I brought my sons up around women. It is an absolute right that every person is free from any type of abuse. This violent verbal included.
Thanks David!
I’m sorry to hear about your issues and glad to hear that you have ‘overcome’ them. I would suggest for you to focus more on the emotional connection of an act of love, and not on the mechanics of sex. The true pleasure for both men and women comes down to the love, not the clinical physical act.
Thanks for your feedback! I am writing here about the mechanics of sex because that's necessary for the treatment of vaginismus- it can't be overcome through emotional connection or love, its a psychosomatic issue- but I agree that love and emotional connection is crucial to healthy sex, once the physical issues are addressed!
I haven’t read the article, so this might be off-topic.
I’ve noticed, through the years, that when a man says “size doesn’t matter” —
he is small.
What would this male-empowerment movement you mention look like? What are the lumps men need to take regarding their biology, to which you allude?
Hi Quambale! I'm not a man so idk exactly what men need. But, non-pickup-artist movements where men support each other in picking nice outfits/hairstyles/glasses, working out to get strong, and then supporting each other on the nerve-wracking quest to approach women with respect? I guess that's called "friends" but some men seem to lack that. I guess I think there should be a massive cultural backlash to misogyny by men, but I don't see it. A male neo-chivalry movement?
I was speaking polemically, but by "lumps" I want them to take, I mean: women are expected to constantly listen to our physical limitations delineated, and accept them, so why don't men accept that they have physical limitations too, like inferior fine motor control, or penis size mattering (to some degree) to the mechanics of sex?
Thanks for reading!